[P.P.A.]

Continued from http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=3155.0

I know I already made such a thread a while ago with little success, however the recent events in Sonic R competition make another discussion on this topic necessary. After Etch's discovery, there are now 2+ courses that require breaking out of bounds for insanely low lap times to be competitive. Resort Island and Radical City in all modes and Regal Ruin and Radiant Emerald in reverse time attack. Seeing how the game only has 5 courses playable in 4 modes each, HALF THE GAME is already broken.

Some will now say that even though these glitches are pretty crazy, they're still not game-breaking, there's skill required to pull them off and still leave space for competition. Why yes, I cannot deny that. I have a few counter arguments though. For once, playing with those glitches is not fun anymore. It's a chore. Groudon plans on stopping to compete, Kmacc has expressed numerous times how he is totally contra all this stuff and I struggle to get back into the game with such freaky grameplay awaiting me. Of course, fun is, especially at TSC's level of skill, not an argument (even though I am convinced a lot of people still enjoy competing in the games they like). Now another thing is that this way of playing Sonic R is far removed from the intended gameplay. Okay, a lot of players (of all games) here use techniques that the developers would have never thought of, but still, I'd consider this problem here to be a lot more weighty than other glitch exploits. My last point would be how similar glitches in other games are handled: I remember this glitch in SA2 for Rouge's or Tails' highway stages I think, that through some exploit allowed you to get times of a few seconds. This one, to my knowledge is banned - why not these here too then? These cases aren't that different, are they?
Or let's take a look at mariokart64.com, the biggest Mario Kart competition site. Of course, this isn't TSC - but it's about funracers, and I think Sonic R is more similar to Mario Kart in gameplay than to for example Sonic Triple Trouble or Sonic Heroes (well no surprise, it is a racer after all). Anyway, mariokart64.com has split charts for runs using shortcuts and ones without them. Shortcuts being defined as breaking out of bounds (or jumping over them), utilizing Lakitu to carry the player further or skipping entire laps - in short, things the developers didn't implement on purpose/tried to stop the player from doing. While some of said "shortcuts" seem a bit too minor to me to forbid, overall I support this action for the reasons stated further above.

Now, my suggestions for a solution would be:

• Ban of the techniques in question
• Separate charts for hax and non-hax
• Ban of said techniques, but addition of freestyle charts that allow them
• Let them slip, but add freestyle charts where they're disallowed

Your thoughts?

[Stefan]

The sa2 example you mention was applicable only to Route 280's mission 2. One of the techniques specifically banned at TSC is restarting the timer after you have competed a level. This manfiests itself in various ways throughout SA2, and is clearly not an acceptable technique. You can pause and restart after completing the level, on the right frame, and regardless of skill level, you will get a time under a second. The technique you mentioned in sa2 was a version of this. In Route 280, the banned technique was using a speedup you had carried from earlier in the level at the exact same time you got your 100th ring, all while facing into the water. This would kill you and complete the objective at the same time, restarting the clock, and effectively making the entire level irrelevant in the eyes of a 1 second glitch to restart the level.

The trick had nothing to do with an out of bounds glitch, and had almost nothing to do with actually speedrunning the level. What you describe in SR are glitches that allow you to get fast times if pulled off correctly.. but they are still dependent entirely on skill and speed. They really -are- that different from the route 280 example you mentioned, and to me should not be any more banned than the various ridiculous glitches in sonic 1 (which, of course aren't banned).

[Shadow Jacky]

Sonic 1 glitches are pro!  Marble 1-3 can die in a pit of fire though >_>

[JBertolli]

I haven't played Sonic R yet, but I've seen those hax videos of Radical City and it reminds me of Mario Kart 64 as well, mostly Wario Stadium. There, you can hop over a wall on the left of the starting line to reach a section much later on in the level and then hop back to the finish line as a lap. That requires skill (I can't do it consistantly) yet is separate from the normal play. I would go with major glitches (probably only for Resort Island and Radical City) be for freestyle.

[Kmacc]

I really think something should be done about all of this. Yeah it takes skill to do these glitches, but it takes more skill to go around the course fully. A big factor though that makes this really annoying is the fact that it isn't even fun. Most people are opposed to it, and they tend to lose interest in the game because of it. I know these shortcuts make me lose interest a bit, and many others feel the same.

PPA is right, half the game is broken basically. For races; All of Resort Island, All of Radical City, Regal Ruin Reverse are hugely broken. Radiant Emerald is broken too where you can fall off the stage and save time in either GP, TA or Reverse, it's just less substantial. Reactive Factory - You can go through the wall near the end (the beginning on reverse) which also saves like half a second.

All in all, the game is very broken. Eventually it will get to the point where all racing times are done with glitches going outside of the actual level, and it will not only be boring a pointless, but extremely tedious. I don't see why it's a huge problem to have two seperate charts, like PPA said - A regular times chart and a freestyle chart for the glitch times.

I'm so tempted to purposely mess this game up to the point where we need split charts lol.

@person above me: And as of now I'd say Regal Ruin reverse should be under there as well, because you can get under 5 second laps on that.

[Stefan]

I'll say it again; ridiculous shortcuts that are relatively unfun, yet skip almost all the level, stay unbanned. See final egg and casinopolis sonic in SADX, about half of the new sonic 1 times, oil ocean 2, eternal engine 1 in sa2b, and various other examples I'm sure I missed. Glitches are not disallowed, and never have been, unless they remove all ability to compete or provide potential for infinite scores/times. SR shortcuts are still incredibly competitive, and take huge amounts of skill as well. I don't see reason to ban, myself.

[Waxwings]

I think that right now the most relevant example in this argument is Balloon Park in the S3 Time Attack section:

http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_3/freestyle/balloon_park/single_lap

Now, in this circumstance there was a glitch very similar to the one encountered in Sonic R; you could literally go over the top of the level and run across it for the other 4 laps. Not only was this strat ridiculous, it also was entirely not interesting or fun. It was tedious.

Not only was it tedious, but it also went against the original point of the game. Because of this, it was moved to a freestyle division. Note how there is no huge tie for first place: it is still quite a challenge to get a top-tier time on this.

Given the similarities to this chart, I would say move the current charts to freestyle.

[Etch]

Funny you say that PPA because I am from mariokart64.com

It was Kmacc who recruited me for Sonic R.

I run the mkds site and at least played enough to rank well there and on mk64 but the main problem with non-sc charts is that you have to make sure everyone is following the rules.

It's easy to race a good 3lap if you time the sc's so it looks like a normal run.

If this site is about getting the fastest times, just leave them there or face the complexities of keeping the integrity of two charts.  Either way, you got to get the job done right.

[Auriman1]

I think the technique should be moved to freestyle charts, as well. After playing excessively one night to get the glitch to work in Regal Ruin a few times, I can say it definitely takes away from the fun factor, and without a doubt discourages people. Since a large portion of the game is affected compared to just one or two levels, but it still requires skill, it seems like something that should be moved to freestyle.

[JBertolli]

The thing about this is that it is completely ruining the point of competition. Instead of cutting corners and quickening routes, you are heading for the break as fast as you can. And then, laps are completely pointless because you simply go around in a circle >_> This is why mariokart64.com has separated the glitched charts from the normal ones.

[yse]

More often than not the best place to actually facilitate discussion like this is in the IRC channel. My opinion is that the charts stay as they are (for reasons already stated by Stefan) but I can be swayed.

[Kmacc]

Just wondering for statistical reasons, what other sonic game has the highest percentage of levels completely ruined to the point where Resort Island and Radical City have gone?

Just an overview for Sonic R:

Resort Island: 6/6 Ruined
Radical City: 6/6 Ruined
Regal Ruin: 2/6 Ruined (Reverse)
Reactive Factory: So far over the past two days, I've semi-ruined 2, and a 3rd can come soon. If I can do this all quick enough, I can do the 3laps and make it 6/6 semi-ruined.
Radiant Emerald: 6/6 Semi-Ruined really, people just need runs where they fall oob. I might be able to get sub-3 second laps here and such, I have to experiment.

So all in all, you can say 22/30, or about 73% of the game is excluding tag and balloons is stupid. It has a definate potential of 26/30. I'm also going to try and ruin Regal Ruin completely to make everything filled with glitches and shortcuts.

If this doesn't make an eventual freestyle chart, then nothing will. I'm sure though that if all of this glitches happen and there's no freestyle chart, then competition will drop to nearly nothing, because nobody wants to go through all of this tedious work. So either there will be freestyle charts, or everybody will completely hate this game.

[Groudon]

I already completely hate this game.  It used to be fun, but now it's all about who can get out of bounds faster and take the most broken route possible for the rest of the track.  Now, since you're trying to completely break the game, I'll soon have zero interest in anything in the game.

[Etch]

Now, since you're trying to completely break the game, I'll soon have zero interest in anything in the game.

Kmacc was not the first to submit sc times here.

You can't just let someone climb the ranks out of protest on how a course is done.  I really don't mind the sc's and glitches, this is just player preference.  If it's allowed on one place then everything else is a go imo.

He can't take all the credit either, we have been finding a lot of cool stuff. ^^

[Groudon]

Well, all the current active submitters for the game are helping to further break the game.

Also, since I got no answer before, how is Amy useful on Resort Island?

[Etch]

Well, all the current active submitters for the game are helping to further break the game.
Also, since I got no answer before, how is Amy useful on Resort Island?

sdj kept breaking levels, no point to just sit there and let him get them all =P

I made a video demonstrating the strat I came up with.  I got much better times now though.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WSlnfOfmwaY

Well, there goes RF and RR completely. XD

[asdf]

Well, all the current active submitters for the game are helping to further break the game.
Also, since I got no answer before, how is Amy useful on Resort Island?

sdj kept breaking levels, no point to just sit there and let him get them all =P

I made a video demonstrating the strat I came up with.  I got much better times now though.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WSlnfOfmwaY

Well, there goes RF and RR completely. XD

Could you please upload the video...
I'm So Curious...

[Kmacc]

RI: Completely Destroyed.
RC: Completely Destroyed.
RR: Completely Destroyed.
RF: Completely Destroyed.
RE: Semi-Destroyed; for now.

Have we ruined this game enough for all of you now? Good. Lets just all compete in tag and balloons now!

Good job to Etch btw, finding most of the glitches! =]

Well, all the current active submitters for the game are helping to further break the game.

Also, since I got no answer before, how is Amy useful on Resort Island?

I do this only to get some kind of split charts or something here. If we don't get split charts then idk.

[Groudon]

Vids of RR and RF plz (and RE if someone can vid the breakout)

[P.P.A.]

ok, everyone should now say his opinion of what should be done so we can bug the responsibles about it.

I'm fine with either a ban of OOB or freestyle charts for the glitches. But not as it is now. :(

[JBertolli]

Freestyle the majorly glitched charts in my opinion. You could possibly allow glitches that simply create a shortcut in the level but do not allow you to break out and circle the finish line.

[Kmacc]

Freestyle the majorly glitched charts in my opinion. You could possibly allow glitches that simply create a shortcut in the level but do not allow you to break out and circle the finish line.

Yeah, that's what I was figuring. Like the old RC and RF reverse shortcuts would be fine imo.

[Etch]

I'll say it again; ridiculous shortcuts that are relatively unfun, yet skip almost all the level, stay unbanned. See final egg and casinopolis sonic in SADX, about half of the new sonic 1 times, oil ocean 2, eternal engine 1 in sa2b, and various other examples I'm sure I missed. Glitches are not disallowed, and never have been, unless they remove all ability to compete or provide potential for infinite scores/times. SR shortcuts are still incredibly competitive, and take huge amounts of skill as well. I don't see reason to ban, myself.

QFT

There is no need to disallow the faster strats, whether they are fun or annoying is opinion.  These are the fastest possible times in the game and since RC was allowed long ago, everything else is fair game.

[Groudon]

Now how about RR, RF, and RE vids?

[P.P.A.]

QFT

There is no need to disallow the faster strats, whether they are fun or annoying is opinion.  These are the fastest possible times in the game and since RC was allowed long ago, everything else is fair game.

When RC was found there were a lot of complaints. However it was the only broken level back then, but now that ALL levels have these glitches I think it's a very different situation.

Also Groudon your opinion plz

[Groudon]

I say Freestyle these strats.  As you said, the RC hax was deemed allowable because it was the only one that was so broken.  RR later was, but originally just on Reverse.  Most of the other games on TSC have some broken levels, but never before has a game on the site been 100% broken (save for 2 modes, but who cares about those?).

[Stefan]

what percent, honestly, of charts are broken in sr times?

s1's percent might come close.

[P.P.A.]

what percent, honestly, of charts are broken in sr times?

s1's percent might come close.

About 75% (the remaining 25% are the Balloon and Tag charts (that nobody really cares about)).
Well, Radiant Emerald is not fully broken. But also iirc.

[bertin]

ok, everyone should now say his opinion of what should be done so we can bug the responsibles about it.

I'm fine with either a ban of OOB or freestyle charts for the glitches. But not as it is now. :(

Ha...what in the world happened...I say freestyle it because...its failing....just failing so badly that I HATE IT!!! I only do tag and balloons now because of all the glitches....FREESTYLE IT NAO!!

[P.P.A.]

Bump.

4 (bertin, Groudon, Kmacc, P.P.A.) are for freestyle charts, 1 (Etch) is for letting everything as it is.

moar people! >:o